Refinery29 Co-Founder Philippe von Borries: The Fruits of Finding the Silver Lining—OFF THE CUFF

Updated on August 31, 2020

This week we go Off the Cuff with entrepreneur and co-founder of global media brand Refinery29, Philippe von Borries. Philippe reveals how to move ahead in digital business in the current pandemic environment.

Watch The Full Interview on YouTube

Philippe von Borries Interview Key Points

In this interview, Philippe discusses the following topics:

He sees the pandemic situation affecting the business industry
The specific effect he foresees upon digital media and advertising
The struggles that legacy brands are currently facing
How he remains in a state of feeling gratitude
Whether there has been a silver lining to the pandemic situation
What lessons we can derive from the current situation
What’s happening in New York City and what needs to be done to revive a once flourishing cultural destination
Insights to help couples on how to maintain a healthy relationship during COVID-19 lockdown
The importance of empathy
When he knows when to go all-in on an idea and when to cut his losses in a business venture
What advice he would give to young entrepreneurs going into the digital space in the current environment

About Philippe von Borries

Philippe von Borries is an entrepreneur and co-founder of Refinery 29, which has been developed into one of the world’s leading digital media and entertainment companies. He is recognized as a genuine digital pioneer.

Philippe von Borries looking happy while being surrounded by flowers. — Philippe von Borries is an Entrepreneur and Co-Founder of Refinery29

Refinery29 is dedicated to inspiring young women to be more informed about the world around them and reach to achieve their full potential. The company began life as a concept on a napkin back in 2004. The premise was to bring the mall concept to the internet but to focus on independent brands for women rather than large retailers. Today, Refinery29 has expanded into a massive online space catering to every topic you can think of.

In October 2019, Refinery29 was sold to Vice Media for a reported $460 million. The company was valued at $ 4 billion.

Philippe has been awarded Ernst & Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award. Prior to going full-time at Refinery 29, Philippe worked for the digital media start-up The Globalist. He is also a graduate of Columbia University with a BA in History.

Philippe von Borries at the beach while carrying his daughter Viva on his shoulders. — Philippe is a Proud Husband and Father

Philippe makes his home in Brooklyn, New York, along with his wife and Refinery 29 co-founder Piera Geladi. He is also the proud dad of a one-year-old daughter named Viva.

Find Philippe von Borries online:

Watch The Full Interview on YouTube

Thank you for joining me in this conversation. I think you’re one of my mentors and advisors on a lot of stuff, and obviously one of my great friends as well. So, it’s a pleasure to have you. Obviously I love you and your wife Piera, and I love your child Viva too. She’s like my little niece. So I’m excited for that. First had foremost, I would just like to open the floor and just let you introduce yourself and let our audience know who Philippe is, who Philippe Von Borries is.
Well, thank you. You’ve been an amazing part of our lives for the last, I don’t know how many years it’s been. Three years?
I think almost four.
And getting to know you. Four years, and getting to know you and developing a friendship and seeing you thrive with everything that you’re doing professionally, and with your just unwavering optimism, which has been incredible to see, especially in this moment of time. I continue to scratch my head, and like, “Corey’s still in New York, “and he’s still got a big smile on his face.” So, I’m Philippe Von Borries. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m a co-founder of Refinery29, which I started in the mid-2000s from very little, back in the day, as sort of a local discovery destination for cool independent businesses to a global media brand that saw many different chapters and business models and media, and over the years really has developed an incredible halo around the set of what it does in the lives of women and was acquired in a transaction last fall by Vice Media. So I’m in the very fortunate circumstance right now of having a little bit more time than I did for the last 15 years, which is handy when you have a one-and-a-half-year-old, to sort of think about the world and what might be next.
Right, no, yeah, that’s awesome. I think a lot of people became aware of the sale of Refinery29 and what you’ve done with Refinery29, I have huge respect for, which is why I appreciate you taking the time to mentor me and advise me in all the ways that you do. Refinery29 has affected so many people across the world positively. You guys are, I mean, what you built from the ground alongside Piera and the rest of your co-founders and the people that you started with and the way you ran that company as a CEO was truly remarkable. So, kudos to you on that. Just to move on, just more on the topic of e-com, et cetera, what with everything going on, what’s your outlook on how this will affect the digital and e-com industries in terms of what we’re dealing with right now with COVID?
Oh, man, that’s a big question. I mean, I think everything is up for grabs, but, if you just look back from where we were two months ago to where we are today, clearly, the world has been turned upside-down. So many new businesses will be founded in this time because, you know, the way people live their lives and what they value in life has just been changed, very, very dramatically. We’re gonna have to wait to see what happens, but obviously, my industry, the one that I spend most of my time especially advertising for the media is a business model that’s gone through a really difficult time, and what you’ve seen is an emergence of subscription-based media that’s really become successful and has built a business model that really works. You know, in this moment of time, if you look at things like Calm Space, something that has a very refined purpose and mission, and people pay for that. That is probably a business model that makes a ton of sense. The podcasting industry, the streaming industry, all that is thriving in this moment of time. And so, on the e-commerce side, I’m not spending as much time as I have on the media side, clearly, but it seems like that world is being turned upside-down as well. You have a lot of traditional legacy brands, retailers, that were struggling already before this all began, that are clearly facing tons and tons of head winds, because the world has changed around them. People don’t go shopping anymore. People don’t care about labels in the same way that they do. People wanna support things that are sustainable. The world has just moved so fast in so many of these things. So I don’t know. I think it’s all up for grabs, and you think we’ll probably look back in a couple years’ time, and you’ll see businesses that didn’t exist today that are gonna be some of the biggest businesses out there.
No, for sure. I mean, a lot of businesses, I’ve already seen it, a lot of businesses obviously trying to create solutions for what’s going on and things like that. so I totally agree there. Just moving along, and I think that was awesome insight, by the way, especially coming from someone like yourself who probably understands the digital space and even the overall space of it, so I think that’s really good insight. Just moving along, for you, obviously you had Viva, you’ve got Piera, you had your “quaranteam” up there in Maine, which was great to see and follow. I know you’re not as outwardly expressful on your social media as Piera is, obviously, but every now and then, when you do post, once a month or once every two months, you kinda reflect. And really, there’s a meaning to everybody’s posts when the post, not to say that, but when you do take the time to post, as someone who probably posts 10 times a year, I know there’s a lot of meaning to it, and just to see you kinda reflecting on your last couple months, I just wanted to, just for the other people out there, I would love to get some insight on what some of the things that you’re doing to remain in a state of gratitude?
Well, I think, I mean, I really think of myself as having been put in this place, in my role in the world, I don’t know, to maybe create some type of awakening around me, ’cause I think I’ve had a lot of it myself, having things that have greater purpose and meaning is incredibly important to me, which is what Refinery was all about. It’s gonna be a critical piece on whatever comes next. So in terms of being grateful, I think it’s an amazing moment to just remind yourself that like, life is amazing. There’s a lot of joy in existence, no matter what happens. And even like being in New York, I was out of the city, and I’m here again right now. In New York, it’s equal parts at this moment of time, and I was gone for a while, it’s energizing, and sort of like somewhat aching and sad at the same time, somewhat like human existence. So I think life is all about reminding yourself that there are great things out there happening at any given day, any moment, despite what is happening in the world. I’m a new dad. I love that. It’s amazing. I love being in nature and taking it all in, and I also really thrive on learning. I really thrive on listening to podcasts, on hearing other people’s perspective, ’cause I’m not one to just sit in a room by myself and come up with something new. I take in a lot of different things, and I connect the dots, and that’s the way I thrive. So being able to leave the day having spent time with my daughter, being out in nature, having learned something and putting it all together is like, the definition of a good day to me.
No, yeah, it’s awesome. Like I said, I’ve honestly been a lot closer to it and just seeing it and seeing Viva, your daughter, your lovely daughter.
Well, she loves you.
It’s hard to explain. I deal with a lot of kids, and I love kids in general, but there’s a special light to Viva that’s just different about her, so, I really appreciate that, and seeing her come up has been amazing. I know you’re truly enjoying it. I know little P, Piera is as well.
Well, what do you do? What do you do to stay grateful every day?
For me, obviously I’m truly blessed during these times. I’ve been in a place in my life where I didn’t have much as a younger kid. My mother, as a single mom, did a lot for me, not that my dad was a bad person or anything, but they had just separated, and all good. And obviously my dad entered back in my life, and obviously I had my Uncle John. Things started to change, and for the better. But I’m just so grateful for my supporting cast, my health. These are things that you can’t put a price on. There’s so many people out there right now who are struggling financially, mentally, physically, and I’m blessed to not be dealing with that. But I’m also trying to find ways to help those people. Obviously one of the reasons why I got into what I do with personal training and even moving towards what I do with 1AND1 and creating health and wellness platform is because I truly enjoy the process of helping people become better versions of themselves. So trying to find ways to continue to do that, not just through health and wellness, but giving back to the right communities or foundations or just knowing that I can provide a meal for someone or whatever it may be is truly important for me. So that’s kind of what keeps me going every day and keeps me thankful and keeps me really energized. Every day I wake up, I just wake up full of energy, because it’s a new day, number one. Very blessed to be alive and very blessed to have people like you who I can talk to and see a couple times a week. So, things like that is what keeps me going. Life could definitely be worse, but it’s not. And that’s what it is. Positive mindset equals positive outcomes for me, and that’s what it’s all about. So if I continue negative thoughts and all that, negative outcomes, you know, it’s not helpful. No matter what the situation is, even just in our conversations when I would come to you in the mornings, you’d be like, “Man, I got a board meeting.” It felt like you had a board meeting every week. It’s so crazy, because between that Tuesday to that Thursday, so much had happened, but it seemed like not very long time had passed. Only two days, right? But you know, you had a board meeting, and you always see how you handled yourself. It was always the same calm, cool, collected no matter what. You got your workout in, you got dressed, you went to work, and I took a lot from that, and even from Piera, just seeing how she would handle adversity and tough times. But you would never show it. I would never even know if there was issues, because you guys were always the same, and that’s the same kinda attitude and the same kind of way I wanna be. No matter what’s going on, you guys never really carried it over to your personal life, and that’s pretty awesome. You were able to separate that. So I try to do the same in everything I do, and that’s what I’m thankful for.
Well, you do an amazing job, but I forgot to say that the most important thing that I’m grateful every day is when I’m stepping out of the lab. Honestly, it’s the only way to stay positive, your physical existence and shape and just work out. I mean honestly, nothing feels better than coming out of it.
No, 100%.
I wanna kill you half the time, but stepping out of it feeling so good. No, I always appreciate the looks you give me when I say, “We got 20 of these,” and you’re like, “20? “How many? “Like, come on, killing me.” No, yeah, that’s awesome. Finishing the workout is definitely a great part of the day, trust me. Moving along, for this COVID stuff that’s all going on, is there a silver lining that you’ve found throughout all of this?
I mean, to me, it’s a very unique moment, because the company got acquired, and I happen to have more time than I have in a long time in a moment in which, you know, you go around the world with no childcare, or people have no school, and it’s just been incredible, because it’s brought me closer to my daughter in many ways. That’s certainly been an amazing silver lining. I also just think that people, it’s clear that people value frienships and relationships and community so much more. I think when you go through these moments in time, you realize that, you know, things sort of get out of whack in life, and then these types of moments happen, and you come back to realignment, and it sort of grounds everybody. It’s extremely stressful and anxiety-producing, but I think it also reminds everybody about what’s really important, right? When you think about even three or four months ago, I don’t know, the amount of money you were spending on things that truly were adding zero value to your life, be that going out or buying clothes or whatever it is, going on fancy trips, not that I don’t love that, not that I don’t wanna ever do that again in my life, but all of those things, I think to everybody, is just realizing, “Oh my God. “I can get by on so much less “and lead a happier life and be more fulfilled.” So I think the silver lining is in that, and I do also think that ultimately, there’s going to be an amazing amount of creation and building coming out of this moment, because, because of all of those things, people will be launching great new businesses that cater to all of it. So, hopefully we can stay in that. I’m also realizing that I’m in a much more fortunate situation, having a time, having a space, having been able to go out of the city. Clearly, so many people don’t have that. But I do hope that this sort of notion of community and friendships and valuing the things that really matter come out of this in a big way. By the way, I’ve also just been thinking about New York City, ’cause I think New York City got out of whack as well. And I hope that the city will be able to find itself in a new way. I’m really hopeful that it can. It always has. It’s always been resilient. I was walking around today on one of these many streets that’s closed, and I really hope that you have somebody who can have bold vision to think about and imagine what a city could look like that’s not just here to everybody who’s moving here with an amazing amount of money, but to the people that live here and create better spaces. So, I just am hopeful that all of this is gonna lead to a greater centering of what it means to live life.
No, yeah, 100%. I mean, the thing about New York City is you don’t live in New York City for the house space. Nobody lives in that 500 square foot apartment to be locked up in it. That’s why so many people left the city, ’cause it’s like, I didn’t move to New York City because of the amount of space I get in my apartment. You move to New York because of the networking and the connections and the people and the energy and what it can provide to your life potentially and all that. That’s what’s so interesting, and now you’re telling people that they have to go from being able to do almost anything that they want and dreamed of in New York City to being locked down in these size whatever apartments that exist that you’re paying four grand for a month. It’s definitely I think opened a lot of people’s eyes towards friendships, relationships, communities, et cetera. I haven’t been able to see my mom. My mom has some underlying issues that she’s dealing with, and it’s tough not being able to see her in the way I’d want to, and having access to her that I’m accustomed to. Obviously, I haven’t seen neither one of my parents. I haven’t seen my uncle, who’s like my second father.
Yeah, it’s tough, yeah.
I haven’t seen my sisters. So, it’s been tough. I haven’t seen you guys outside virtually. Everything’s moved more virtually, and I think a lot of people are taking the time to really reach out to their loved ones that they probably have maybe neglected over the past years or whatever it has been. So I definitely agree with you on that. You know, and that’s great to hear, is obviously, as you mentioned, a lot of people are struggling during these times, as we’ve already talked about. From an entrepreneur perspective, is there any advice you would give to a young or old entrepreneur who may be struggling during these times?
I mean, it sort of depends on where you’re at in your journey. The answers are so different. To someone who’s an aspiring entrepreneur, there’s no better times, right? Everyone will charge you less money. They’ll be more committed. All of those things are coming together to give you the firepower to sort of go after it. We launched Refinery when we were in our mid-20s, and shortly thereafter, the Great Recession happened. It was actually a really amazing time, because we had so little overhead and we’re able to just weather through it. So I think if you’re just starting out and you have an idea, there’s no better time. Now is an amazing time. And then of course, if you’re already running a business, and this is evident at this point, ’cause we’re two and a half months into this, you will have either already made the choices that you need to make in preserving what’s really important, your brand, you know, and just trimming it back as much as you have to to make sure that you’re still there at the end of the day, right? That’s what this moment is clearly demanding of everybody, and it’s very tough for a lot of people, I mean, for everybody affected. So I don’t know. At the end of the day, being an entrepreneur is all about resilience.
100%.
And weathering through it, right? You get knocked down so many times. People tell you that your idea sucks, and you go and knock on the next door. So, this moment demands it even more, and I think if you get through this, you’ll look back, I don’t know, two, three years from now, and you’re like, “Oh my God, “I can’t believe that happened and I survived it.”
Well, you kinda touched on it earlier, right? There’s gonna be a lot of great businesses that come out of this, and a lot of those great businesses are gonna have some young, or older entrepreneurs behind it, who have an idea and have a dream and a vision that hasn’t come to fruition yet, but because they were so resilient and stuck with it, it’s gonna be a very successful business. So in the same way like you said. You said you launched your business right before the recession, and you found ways to get through. Look, forward to 2020, so I guess the end of 2019 to early 2020, you sold the business, right? So, that’s pretty awesome. Yeah, I mean, that’s great. For so many people during this time, and I’m sure you’ve seen it obviously, and again, you and Piera have a bond and a true friendship and a love like no other that I’ve seen and been able to admire and learn from, and obviously, I’m sure that you’ve seen in the media about how it’s been hard for relationships to go from being busy, ’cause you know, when you’re married and both of you guys are so busy, typically, you don’t see each other as much. So what advice would you give to people in relationships that are now basically tied at the hip, and moving forward, obviously giving each other more space, et cetera, but are there any insightful things?
Yeah, totally.
That you guys do that help you guys along obviously with having to spend more time with each other? Which I’m sure is great, and obviously you see Beaver more, but everybody needs their space. No matter how much you hug, it doesn’t matter.
Yeah, no, I mean, it’s such a good question. I think the biggest thing is it’s such an easy moment, it’s such a natural moment to just get impatient, to get pissed off, to read into people’s behaviors and what they’ve said, and I think it’s moreso than ever, and it’s hard, because tensions run high. I think there’s moments where you get snappy, where you say something, where you piss the other person off, though it can get worse than that, is to just rewind the movie and say, “Did I just read something into that? “Am I judging something that Piera said “or somebody else said, and did I get snappy as a result?” I think it’s that moment to just check in with yourself and be triply cognizant of the other person and how they’re feeling. It’s just very easy to lose your patience at this time. So, I try to remind myself to just constantly check in with, in this case, Piera’s reality, and she does the same with me. So, I don’t know, it’s hard. It’s hard for anyone.
Sure, it’s different times, and look, even when you’re a happily married couple, you probably spend, in terms of all your time, and obviously you guys ran Refinery29 together and have been together for a long time now, but it’s still a change in the amount of time that you spend with each other.
Right.
That’s an adjustment.
What about for you?
Yeah, for me, my business partner who I started 1AND1 Life with, TDrew, he’s obviously my roommate, so same thing. I have the benefit of being able to go somewhere else in the city to where, we just know each other. He doesn’t have to tell me, I don’t have to tell him. We just know. It’s just good for any relationship, whether it’s a friendship, a marriage, whatever it may be. As you said, check in with his reality, or see how they’re doing, really be cognizant of their feelings, their emotions, what they may be dealing with. Not everybody is also outwardly expressful for how they’re feeling, right? So, checking in, just to see, and obviously, we have two different relationships. We have a business relationship, and same with you and Piera. You have a business relationship, and then we have our friendship. You have a business relationship, and you have your marriage.
Totally.
So, also being able to separate that as well, ’cause it’s like, obviously you guys are no longer on the business side of it, necessarily in the weeds with that side of it, but for me, I’m still in the weeds with my business partner. We’re still trying to get where we wanna be. So at the end of the day, we gotta get a lot done on the business side, but at the end of the day, it’s also, how do we maintain our friendship at a high level, and I think we’ve done a good job of that. And again, I think a lot of that has to do with continuing to stay cognizant of how he’s feeling, how he’s doing, and vice versa. He checks in on me; I check in on him. You gotta do your best not to let business and the strains and the difficulties that come along and adversity you may face, you gotta find ways to get through that and not let it affect your personal relationship with someone. Obviously I don’t think anybody has done that better than you guys, being that you basically founded a company together and sold it together, and here you are today. So, I think that’s an easy transition into my next question.
I think it’s about putting yourself in other people’s shoes. That’s the greatest thing that you can always do. Piera and I had divided our day into different chunks, where we had a schedule where from eight to 10, I have my time to just do my thing, and then from 10 to one, Piera has her time to just do her thing, and the other week, I don’t know, it was like, 9:30 in the morning. You know this from me. I’m German. Some would say I can come across as sounding bossy. It was like, 9:30, and I knew I had until 10, and getting an infant or toddler dressed takes a lot. And I said, “Piera.” I just said, “Please have Viva dressed by 10 a.m..” It came across in a way that she felt like she was being judged for her qualities of being a mom, and of course, that wasn’t my intention at all, but I totally had to take a step back and realize that, “Okay, I might have come across that way, “if that’s what it meant to her.” Everything takes, it’s triply as exhausting, or as necessary, to just be aware, to be aware of what’s going on in your surroundings and people’s feelings and what they’re going through.
Right, no, I’m the same. Sometimes I definitely come off as being upset or whatever. It’s like sending that email or text where it’s hard to really tell what the tone or context is. It’s all text. So even when you’re verbally speaking, you have to do the same. And just kinda rewinding back to when you guys did run Refinery29 together and were in the weeds together, how did you guys manage that together? How’d you find the balance?
I mean, much in the same way, but for us, the great thing has been the sort of, we really sort of help each other out. I get to sort of siphon off Piera’s creative genius, and at the same time, I think she needs a sounding board in a lot of different things, and just being each other’s sounding boards, or helping each other to brainstorm something, if that’s preparing Piera for a new talk or for a presentation or me for needing a sparring partner to think about my mental energy going into a meeting. It’s those types of things. I think that’s what any type of partnership is about. And so, yeah, it’s a lot of the same things that we just spoke about. And to us, it just really clicked. I think we’re good creative partners.
Right, no, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, man, all that’s awesome insight, and I think that’s really valuable. As we discussed, during these times, relationships have become so important, so I definitely wanted to just provide some insight on that, because I think people are finding the importance of relationships. I think marriages may be struggling a little bit unnecessarily because I just don’t think people really understand how to deal with it. So I thought it was very important to touch on that, and good for people to get some sort of perspective on that. So last question, and I’ll let you get going. In terms of COVID-19, and I know we kind of touched on earlier, the digital space in general. If you’re a young entrepreneur looking to go into it right now, what would you have to say to them? Is there anything they should look out for, or stuff like that, not doing what you did, ’cause I don’t think Refinery29 can be replicated, but yeah, just trying to make some sort of digital media conglomerate in the way that you did? Is there any words of advice or last words that you would pass along to them, or maybe even advise ’em to stay away from in a lot of ways?
No, I think, I mean, for any entrepreneur, it doesn’t matter whether it’s COVID-19 or whatever it is, I think the question is, you know, the thing that always is the thing that I wanna see the most from an entrepreneur is the answer to, “Why is this your life’s mission? “Why do you have to do this?” So that answer has to be, regardless of what you are doing and at what point, boom, recession, depression, you have to know the answer to that, what got you there. So, I don’t know. I think right now, it’s like, if you’re sitting here, and you have time, and you wanna launch a business, or you’re an entrepreneur, I think everything is on the table, how people eat, how they exercise, how they wanna learn. Anything is on the table as a new business, and I think just dissecting and understanding what’s changing so quickly and moving quickly in that, ’cause I think speed is very much of the essence right now. For example, we spoke about this a lot. I think that the entire creator economy, if you’re an instructor, fitness, wellness, yoga, if you’re a teacher, there’s an entire world that’s just opened up of people who will become, who are building their own businesses, and not brands anymore, ’cause that already sounds too much of a bygone Instagram era. I feel like we’re really talking of a new caliber of people who are launching businesses, like individual small businesses, and that to me is a fascinating space, and I think so many great businesses will be birthed out of that. So move quickly and go after what you feel the greatest need to, like, you know it when you wake up in the morning and you think about it, and you go to sleep and you think about it, and it clicks. You’ll know it.
Right, and I guess, that was my last question, but it just kinda popped in my head, because obviously for anybody, is there a certain, like for you as an entrepreneur, when do you know to go all-in on an idea and when to cut your losses? Is there a defining moment in the way you think about stuff? I think that’s good for people to know.
I mean, there’s no such thing. Obviously you go in for a long time before you cut your losses, and you go in because you believe that it’s your life’s mission and you fully believe in the opportunity, and you go in despite the fact that everybody has told you that it’s a bad idea and that you shouldn’t do it and that people aren’t funding you, and you continue to do it. I think you cut your losses when you set yourself milestones. For example, you launch something, you launch something as a product. You set yourself some goals, because you have to be able to track what you’re doing and hold yourself accountable. And if you just see it not working out, then you either need to change what you’re doing to something that is an adjustment of what you’re doing, not necessarily a complete restart, but you need to keep changing it, and if you’re not seeing that working out at all, then eventually, you do need to cut your losses. And that’s a hard position, but setting yourselves goals is the most important thing so you can hold yourselves accountable.
Right. Yeah, I think even for me, I think I learned that from you and obviously some of my other mentors, but setting goals, defining what your value is, stuff like that that you taught me in the digital space at least. How do you take the value of who you are in a physical setting and show people that digitally? There’s tons of great blogs out there, and there’s tons of great platforms or media platforms out there, but not all of them are as popular as a Refinery29 or a Dotdash website, right, because it comes down to, “What was the value proposition? “How do I stand out? “How am I different? “How am I different than the rest? “What makes me valuable to my audience “and the community that I’m building in the digital market?” So, you know, I think that’s pretty cool. I think that’s really important. I wanna thank you for your time today, and I appreciate you so much, as always. We got a good workout in this morning. Welcome back to New York City.
Thank you.
I know you’re gonna get back up to Maine, and I hope you really enjoy it. For these times, it just makes sense to be in a place like that where you can just have outdoors, not have to worry as much about what’s going on in this crazy city.
Well, I miss New York. New York’s a great place, and not without quarantining in Maine again for 14 days, which is another new reality. All of a sudden, anywhere you go, you have to think about 14 days of quarantining.
Right, it’s gonna be a different time. I don’t think these virtual connections and things like that are going anywhere for a long time. Again, I think a lot of people are realizing that they can run their businesses the same virtually. They may not be making as much money, but they’ve realized that they’re just as efficient in terms of getting things done. People realize that I can connect with people in these ways. We can do things and obviously have social interaction again, but let’s continue to do what we need to do to hopefully keep others safe and keep other people from being affected by what’s going on negatively. Then yeah, I think we’ll come out of this all right, especially New York. I do think it will be different. I think it will kind of restructure it, kind of reset it a little bit. It’s unfortunate that people who are struggling with this, physically, mentally, financially, during these times, are having to deal with this in such a way that’s really affecting their lives, but I say a prayer for them every night, and I do hope for the best for them, and I am trying to find ways that I can help those in need, and I think you all are. I think Refinery29 always does a good job of that. I know you care greatly about bringing light to situations, social situations, social circumstances, et cetera, so, thank you PVB, you’re the man.
Thank you, Big C.
And I will make sure that you get to check this out. Again, thank you for your time, my man.
Thank you very much, it was fun.
All right, my man.

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